Traditions
Thu, 2011-04-07 14:42
Share and discuss AA's 12 Traditions
Wed, 2013-05-22 21:32
#1
Changing Tradition Five
I always thought that the primary purpose of an AA group was defined in Tradition Five: “Each group has but one primary purpose-to carry its message to the alcoholic who still suffers.”
However, in these forums I’ve seen many references to a statement in the conference approved pamphlet “The AA Group” saying that the AA group’s primary purpose is “to help alcoholics recover through AA’s suggested 12 Steps of recovery." (page 29)
I never realized that an AA group’s primary purpose had been changed and was now so limited. Evidently, Tradition Five’s broad charter for AA groups to carry a “message” of hope is obsolete. When was the decision made to change the wording of an AA group’s primary purpose from “message” to “12 Steps”?
Thu, 2013-05-16 11:03
#2
tradition 3 long form
I attended a group in another town yesterday. As usual, good meeting with good people staying sober one day at a time. The gentleman sitting immediately to my right introduced himself as a heroin addict. The group made no mention of the meeting being open or closed, so I assumed it was an open meeting.
After the meeting I had a little chat with the heroin addict. I asked him if he fit in with the group. He said he got out of prison 5 months ago and has been clean for about two years. He said some oldtimers have asked him to leave their meetings, but he has a desire to stop drinking so he can come to the AA meeting. He said if he drinks it will lead him back to other drugs. I thought of tradition 3 long form, “our membership ought to include all who suffer from alcoholism”. I think you have to have an alcoholism problem to go along with your desire to stop drinking. I was trying to be a nice guy, so I didn’t say anything.
Anyway, I then asked him this, “Why don’t you go to NA?” He said it doesn’t really exist in that town. My next question was, “Why don’t you start a NA or heroin anonymous group? You will never be able to carry the message of recovery from alcoholism from your own experience to another alcoholic. You can’t give a strait AA talk from a podium. If you start a group of your own, you can do 12 step work by identifying with those who have your problem”.
He then told me the truth. He goes to 2 AA meetings a day to stay sober and has never worked the steps and sees no need to do 12 step work because he has made it 5 months sober outside of prison. I said glad to meet you and asked him again to think about starting his own meeting.
Is attending a couple of AA meetings a day a common plan for sobriety? I have always lived in smaller towns that don’t have that many meetings. I stay sober by applying the 12 steps in my daily life. I have a hard time imagining the meeting a day plan. Can a person really go to 1 or 2 meetings a day for the rest of their life? To each his own I guess, It just sounds like a sure way to fail. That many meetings would certainly come between me and my family, job, sponsoring newcomers, and any vacations or fun activities.
I shouldn’t judge! I drove 80 miles out of my way to attend that meeting yesterday!
Tue, 2013-05-21 06:43
#3
RE: I shouldn't judge
I know I am told not to judge, but. I have tried numerous times to encourage drug addicts to start a
meeting where they can identify with each other. My
concern is personal. My only son is a drug addict. He
has attended A.A. meetings, probably has an alcohol
problem, has attended N.A. meetings with me and on
his own. At least four rehabs. He does not feel that
he fits in anywhere.
You seem to think that an alcoholic's solution is
found in the twelve steps. The twelve steps are an
aid in recovery. But the solution to alcoholism goes
much deeper than that. An alcoholic who has gotten
sober through the process of the twelve steps can
pass that sobriety on to another suffering alcoholic
with ease. We only have to follow some very simple
basic rules. This technique takes skill, self control
and intense personal sacrifice. Rarely will we fail if
we just follow this path: Stop telling suffering
alcoholics what to do. Not even recommending what
they ought to do.
In order to effectively carry the message to the
masses, we only share own story. Stop saying, Well,
if you want what we(I) have, you will have to do what
I did, or even worse, do what I tell you to do.
Did you offer to help this Heroin addict to form
a "real" N/A type meeting? Five months of attending
A.A. meetings is not going to prepare him to start
a meeting. Please offer to help him, or find someone
closer to your location. Bill W. tells us we ought
to consider helping the drug addict. He/She is not
helped by continuing to allow them to be members of
Alcoholics Anonymous. then everyone loses. ANONYMOUS
Thu, 2013-05-23 00:32
#4
re judge
Only in AA can you hear someone talk about not telling others what to do and then proceed to tell others what to do!
Thanks God Bill W didn’t wait until he was 5 months sober to start a group, thank God Dr. Bob didn’t think he was too new to start a meeting. Thank God most of the founders of meetings throughout the US and the rest of the world didn’t think they had to be sober for long periods of time to start a group or meeting. It they thought the way you do, we would all be dead like most of the alcoholics throughout history prior to June 10, 1935.
Fri, 2013-05-17 19:47
#5
re 3 long form
"It (1 or 2 meetings a day for the rest of their life)just sounds like a sure way to fail. That many meetings would certainly come between me and my family, job, sponsoring newcomers, and any vacations or fun activities."
EXACTLY. I wish I had said that.
I started to attending a group that was infected with "Just go to meetings and don't drink in between" and to answer your question yes, there is a lot of that going on.
I started throwing out lines like "I couldn't NOT drink. Sounds like my mother-in-law in here".
I couldn't get it with a**mosis just setting on the same chair as sober people.
You can get warm by wetting the bed, but it doesn't last long.
Would you tell somebody to keep coming to the pool and watch people who took the lessons swim and don't drown in between?
Some got the message. At least they don't do it around me.
As far as the addict goes, relying on him or her to do the right thing isn't a solution. The group conscience needs to provide a clear policy and a group leader to employ it. We've always had addicts attending since I started 33 years ago. Has it hurt us. I can't judge. If we kicked them out would they die? I don't know. If we kick them out would NA get better? Probably.
Wed, 2013-05-22 01:58
#6
re long form
I too have been sober a little over 33 years. In California - the land of fruits and nuts. I now live in the Palm Springs area. Before I moved here I lived in Orange County and worked at Central Office every Monday AM with my sponsor. We received a call one Monday AM from an irate sober alky. He arrived in town Sat night. Called and was told there was an AA meeting not far from where he was staying. He went there Sunday afternoon and heard nothing but Narcotics type of talk. I was a member of the 'Group RElations' Committee and told him I would look into it. Also reported this to our Central Office manager. Next Sunday I went to the meeting and sure as heck he was right.
After the meeting I took the secretary aside and told her that she was breaking AA traditions. She apoligized and said that would stop. To make the long story short this happened repeatedly during the next few months. Finally our C.O. manager went to the group on a Sunday. Sure as heck they were still breaking traditions. She gave them a check for their contributions so far and told them they would be taken out of our 'AA Directory'.
It wasn't long before the group died by itself.
God took care of our problem!
Wed, 2013-05-01 18:25
#7
The 4th Tradition
Often I hear about how "our group is autonomous" which is a PART of the 4th Tradition (Each group should be autonomous except in matters affecting other groups or A.A. as a whole). I have seen problems for groups when the second half of the tradition is ignored. The word "except" is a big word.
It seems to me that the second half of the 4th Tradition is as important and maybe even more important than the first half of the Tradition. If we do whatever we want, in regards to our groups, and disregard AA as whole, we could be in collective trouble someday.
Mon, 2013-05-20 12:29
#8
Re: The 4th Tradition
Thanks for that, I agree. Each AA group is a group within a group. Each group that thinks it is autonomous is a dysfunctional group within a group.
Circles of Love and Service pamphlet http://www.aa.org/pdf/products/p-45_circleoflove.pdf
Mon, 2013-04-29 05:27
#9
Cell Phones & Anonymity
I have recently been concerned about anonymity in meetings when cell phones ae in use.
I have witnessed pictures and videos being taken in a meeting without the members consent. When the member who was taking these pictures was approached he just tossed t off as though WE were the problem. This guy has over 10 years sober. I am sure that cell phones have been left with their speakerphone ON during a meeting so the called party could "listen in" to the meeting.
If Anonymity is te spiritual FOUNDATION should this issue not be addresses throughout our fellowship?
What are your thoughts about this issue?
Tue, 2013-04-30 10:45
#10
re: cell phones
“…should this issue not be addresses throughout our fellowship?”
It already has. It’s tradition 12 and it couldn’t be more clear. As far as I’m concerned every member is responsible for its implementation at all times. I try to be as tactful as I can but immediate action is indicated in this situation and I don't care who I have to interrupt, who get embarrassed, or who gets their little feelings hurt. AA offers excellent solutions for those suffering from self centeredness and being oversensitive.
You just showed a great example of what a poor indicator actual (or claimed) length of sobriety is for QUALITY of sobriety. I recently confronted an attorney with 35 years about a racial slur. He danced around trying to defend it but soon other members started lining up, putting principals before personalities. If he ever reached the point of admitting he was wrong and getting the wonderful relief and growth it brings, I didn’t see it but he certainly changed his behavior.
Because we are part of an organization whose admission requirements are peoples liabilities, not their assets, we’d be wise to expect problems wouldn’t we? As time passes and we get over our initial defiance, complacency sets in for a while and finally dementia takes over. If our lives didn’t depend on AA we’d be crazy to put up with it. On the other hand, it’s the best thing that has ever happened in my life. A life I wouldn’t trade for any one elses on the planet today. May you enjoy the same.
Fri, 2013-04-19 13:02
#11
tradition 3
Tradition 3 short form says our only requirement for membership is a desire to stop drinking. I can remember when it said “honest” desire.
Tradition 3 long form says our membership ought to include all who suffer from alcoholism.
I was listening to a speaker recently who stated you are not a member of AA unless you have a home group, a job in that home group, and have worked the 12 steps. I know the speaker was well aware of tradition 3. I think what he may have meant to say is there is a huge difference between going to AA meetings and being an active member of AA.
Please remember if you are new that not everyone who attends AA meetings is an active member of AA. Our meetings are open to anyone who thinks they have a problem with alcohol. If your first meeting seems off the beam and you find nothing attractive, please attend other meetings in your area until you find the fellowship and quality sobriety you seek. Those groups are not too hard to recognize. You will find enthusiasm, happiness, and from my experience, active sponsorship and 12 step work.
May God bless you and keep you—until then,
Corey
Thu, 2013-04-25 16:47
#12
tradition 3
"honest desire" appears to fall into AA "urban legend" category along with "never have we seen a person fail..."
On Tradition Three
"The only requirement for A.A. membership is a desire to stop drinking."
Editorial by Bill W.
A.A. Grapevine, February, 1948
"Our membership ought to include all who suffer alcoholism. Hence we may refuse none who wish to recover. Nor ought A.A. membership ever depend upon money or conformity. Any two or three alcoholics gathered together for sobriety may call themselves an A.A. group, provided that, as a group, they have no other affiliation."
This is a sweeping statement indeed; it takes in a lot of territory. Some people might think it too idealistic to be practical. It tells every alcoholic in the world that he may become, and remain, a member of Alcoholics Anonymous so long as he says so. In short, Alcoholics Anonymous has no membership rule.
Why is this so? Our answer is simple and practical. Even in self protection, we do not wish to erect the slightest barrier between ourselves and the brother alcoholic who still suffers. We know that society has been demanding that he conform to its laws and conventions. But the essence of his alcoholic malady is the fact that he has been unable or unwilling to conform either to the laws of man or God. If he is anything, the sick alcoholic is a rebellious nonconformist. How well we understand that; every member of Alcoholics Anonymous was once a rebel himself. Hence we cannot offer to meet him at any half-way mark. We must enter the dark cave where he is and show him that we understand. We realize that he is altogether too weak and confused to jump hurdles. If we raise obstacles, he might stay away and perish. He might be denied his priceless opportunity.
So when he asks, "Are there any conditions?" we joyfully reply, "No, not a one." When skeptically he comes back saying, "But certainly there must be things that I have to do and believe," we quickly answer, "In Alcoholics Anonymous there are no musts." Cynically, perhaps, he then inquires, "What is this all going to cost me?" We are able to laugh and say, "Nothing at all, there are no fees and dues." Thus, in a brief hour, is our friend disarmed of his suspicion and rebellion. His eyes begin to open on a new world of friendship and understanding. Bankrupt idealist that he has been, his ideal is no longer a dream. After years of lonely search it now stands revealed. The reality of Alcoholics Anonymous bursts upon him. For Alcoholics Anonymous is saying, "We have something priceless to give, if only you will receive." That is all. But to our new friend, it is everything. Without more ado, he becomes one of us.
Our membership tradition does contain, however, one vitally important qualification. That qualification relates to the use of our name, Alcoholics Anonymous. We believe that any two or three alcoholics gathered together for sobriety may call themselves an A.A. group provided that, as a group, they have no other affiliation. Here our purpose is clear and unequivocal. For obvious reasons we wish the name Alcoholics Anonymous to be used only in connection with straight A.A. activities. One can think of no A.A. member who would like, for example, to see the formation of "dry" A.A. groups, "wet" A.A. groups, Republican A.A. groups, Communist A.A. groups. Few, if any, would wish our groups to be designated by religious denominations. We cannot lend the A.A. name, even indirectly to other activities, however worthy. If we do so we shall become hopelessly compromised and divided. We think that A.A. should offer its experience to the whole world for whatever use can be made of it. But not its name. Nothing could be more certain.
Let us of A.A. therefore resolve that we shall always be inclusive, and never exclusive, offering all we have to all men save our title. May all barriers be thus leveled, may our unity thus be preserved. And may God grant us a long life - and a useful one!
Bill W.
The A.A. Grapevine, February, 1948
Fri, 2013-04-26 15:39
#13
"honest desire" appears to
"honest desire" appears to fall into AA "urban legend" category along with "never have we seen a person fail..."
Please explain how "never have we seen a person fail..." is an urban legend. According to Snopes, "Urban legends are best described as cautionary or moralistic tales passed along by those who believe (or claim) the incidents befell either folks they know personally or acquaintances of friends or family members."
According to the Big Book, third and fourth editions, page xiv, "The only requirement for membership is an honest desire to stop drinking."
Wed, 2013-04-24 09:47
#14
Honest
Corey, Exactly when was the word Honest deleted from the
third tradition. Was it in the tradition when they were
accepted by the General Service Conference in 1950. That
was the year I first heard of Alcoholics Anonymous. I
joined the fellowship twenty years later. Was the word
Honest written in fhe Preamble when it first appeared? Was
that 1946? I am glad that it was deleted back then. Maybe
the time has come to remove it again.
I have a friend who attends our Sat Morning step
meeting. This is the only A.A meeting he attends. He has
tried other meetings and he says they are not worth
the time and effort. He spends the time at work and
with his family. I go to that meeting because that is
the only time I get to see him. And he makes great
coffee. He has only been sober for two years but
honestly seems reasonably happy with his life. ANONYMOUS
Mon, 2013-04-01 20:49
#16
Poor me
Poor me. Look at what’s passed off as AA today that I have to put up with. Dogma and distortion, watered down word games and worse. Poor me. Would some body pour me a drink.
Wed, 2013-04-03 11:13
#17
RE: poor me
Alcoholics are dying, someone wrote two hundred every day, their families and friends are suffering. Our effectiveness has been severely diminished by these
things you mention. Surely, you can find something more
constructive to do than to make fun of me. ANONYMOUS
Thu, 2013-04-04 10:06
#18
re re poor me
I don’t think the guy is making fun of you as much as bringing attention to an important point. It’s my responsibility to bring my concerns about how to best carry the message to my group conscience meeting, or district or area if I wear one of those hats. I try to present it as convincingly as possible in a business like manner. If the majority doesn’t see fit to go along with it, it’s my job to accept that. Nobody gave me an exclusive on knowing God’s will for everybody. AA may be just fine the way it is right now or may need to run off a cliff before it can be replaced by something better.
I attend a couple of get-togethers a year that have both an AA and Alanon speaker. Learned that there is some co-dependency in this if not most alcoholics. The symptom shows glaringly in “If they would just listen to me (let me control them) then everything, including me, would be just fine”. Fortunately the same twelve steps works on that disease as well, I just need to recognize its symptoms. When I walk into an AA group, where everybody is required to be nuts to join, and tie my happiness to their behaving, I’m in big trouble. If I’m moping around feeling sorry for myself instead of being a living testament that the promises do indeed come true, I’m of no value to those dying, killing or being imprisoned every day.
Mon, 2013-04-01 20:43
#19
Lies, worse lies and statistics
Who would have any idea of the number of AA members but AA groups? The last numbers I could find showed about 64,000 groups in the US and Canada with less than half of them contributing financially to the General service Office of Alcoholics Anonymous. If they won’t contribute a dime of support, what kind of information are they providing on membership? Sketchy to non-existent would be my guess. On the other end of the scale are groups that would contribute the best information available, but what would it be? Except for in some small isolated groups, I wouldn’t expect any to be able to provide a very good idea of a head count of members. It’s the nature of people to want to quantify things and the nature of AA to elude it. Also affecting membership numbers is a large part of the population that was exposed to and developed a drug of choice other than alcohol. And there are those, despite a loud and prolonged outcry to the contrary, who recover in Alcoholics Anonymous and get on with their lives. There are lies, worse lies and then there are statistics.
Thu, 2013-04-18 09:39
#20
Membership Numbers
Our General Service Conference meets next week. 93 delegates
are gathering in New York to view the operations of our
General Service Board, our General Service Office, and
our publishing operations.
About two million dollars is spent on the conference
every year. To my knowledge the New York operation is
about a fifteen million dollar operation. I have seen
estimates of 22 million dollars annually. Our current
General Service Board continues to violate Tradition
Seven, by using profits from the sale of books and
literature to fund salaries and benefits. We are supposed
to be selling books and literature at the cost of
producing them, as part of our service to the public.
This enhances our image in the eyes of the public, and
prevents any interference in our affairs.
What is the product? We gain about 15,000 new members
a year, and have held that rate of gain for the last
few years. Why do we need a Conference? Bern Smith
answered this question sixty years ago; to spread the
word of A.A. to the alcoholic who suffers and may not
know there is help available. That is simply not true
in today's age of communication.
I believe that any person who has drunk themselves
into a position to need us, has heard of us. One of
my past delegates wrote that "what they have heard about
us" may prevent many from aproaching us." You might say, well,
that is a job for our Public Information Committees. We need
to inform prospects that we are not a religion or a cult.
Would it not make more sense to change the way meetings
are conducted, so there would be no reason for anyone
to think of us as a cult or religion?
Again, where is the product? Where are the results of
a two million dollar conference and a fifteen million
dollar operation. 15,000 new members a year. With 60,000
groups, that is only one group out of four gaining one new member per year. This is done by our local groups.
These are core problems which are not even on the back
burner. Our conference will spend much of the week discussing "The Plan". And congradulating themselves on
doing such a great job. And expressing great appreciation
for being "chosen" for such an honor. We are failing
hundreds of thousands of suffering alcoholics every year
by the way our meetings are conducted. And that failure
will continue for the next generations of sufferers.
Please re-consider postings this message before pressing
the delete button. Who am I kidding? You did not even
read this far.
Mon, 2013-04-29 14:48
#21
cost of the conference
the cost of the conference is not $2M a year. i think it is less than half of that. blessings, L
Wed, 2013-05-01 14:48
#22
lelagrapevine
This is another project for Corey. How much DO we spend
on the General Service Conference? It has been held in
two different locations in recent years. Why don't we
hold the conference in a different Locale every year?
Are we obligated to have the Conference in New York?
I do believe the cost is close to two million dollars
a year. As a conservative, it does sound excessive. My
State (area) could use the business. ANONYMOUS
Mon, 2013-04-22 10:55
#23
RE: Membership Numbers
My heart is filled with gratitude. Thank You, Sincerely.
ANONYMOUS
Thu, 2013-04-25 22:15
#24
RE: RE: Membership Numbers.
Thanks for the thanks. But I cannot continue this
alone. Hopefully you are attending A.A. meetings. Make
sure your groups have regular group conscience meetings,
once a month if possible. Spend an hour a month with
group members discussing these questions: Why are we
shouting, chanting, yelling or hooting and hollering?
These rituals make us look stupid in the eyes of the
public.
Why do we continue to read "How it Works" aloud at
meetings. Bill W. wrote in "Three Talks to Medical
Societies", that even he could not fully explain how
A.A. works. pamphlet (centerfold). This reading makes
an AA meeting seem like a church service. Separate A.A.
from church. The individual A.A. member can be as
religious as she/he chooses, but keep it out of A.A.
Tradition. Pray in your own home or church and do so on your own time.
Today's concept of sponsor is so distorted it needs
to be eliminated. Then the true sponsor will reappear.
There should be no hierarchy or patriarchy at all in A.A.
We all come together as equals. A spectacle ought not
be made of any member, newcomer or earlytimer.
Buy these books. Read and study them. The Language of
the Heart; Alcoholics Anonymous comes of Age. These are
the source explaining many of my concerns. ANONYMOUS
Tue, 2013-04-16 14:18
#25
RE; Lies and statistics
64,000 groups in the US and Canada. In the past three
years we have gained about 15,000 new members each
year. Only one group out of four gained one new member
in a year's time. If a group cannot help and hold more
than one new member annually, something is awfully wrong. Sure, we stay sober just
by "trying" to help other alcoholics. Bill did that in
his first few months of sobriety. Bill said his approach
was wrong. He almost spoiled the whole thing.
But when Bill approached Dr. Bob in humility and
weakness, Dr. Bob responded favorably. Most A.A. members
have not a nodding acquaintance with humility, although
we think we have it abundantly. We preach humility but
have not an ounce of it ourselves.
It seems that our lack of growth and our failure
is evident to everyone except our own prideful members.
Is it possible that half of our A.A. groups are
practicing Concept Seven? Not all is in the Big Book.
ANONYMOUS
Tue, 2013-02-12 12:20
#26
Fellowship or fellowship?
In thinking about what AA is and or was, the comments about Fellowship and fellowship keep surfacing. The big book and the 12x12 use an F or an f for Fellowship. I thought I would see how often this happens, so I used a web site called 164 and more to search.
Fellowship is used 36 times in the big book and 12x12 and fellowship is used 21 times in those books.
In trying to avoid contempt prior to investigation, I looked up definitions for Fellowship:
1. A company of people that shares the same interest or aim.
2. A feeling of friendship, relatedness or connection between people.
Those definitions seem to fit well with AA.
As to the history of our Fellowship and the program or 12 steps of our fellowship, I am of an increasing opinion that the Fellowship and the 12 steps of the program were originally one in the same. Page 42 in the big book chapter “more about alcoholism” comes to mind. The first sentence of the second full paragraph states,” Then they outlined the spiritual answer and program of action which a hundred of them had followed successfully”.
From my experience and reading all the historical material I can get my hands on, for me I have come to believe the spiritual answer is the belief and surrender to a higher power of my understanding, and the program of action is the 12 steps that carry out the goal of surrender and belief in a higher power.
In our big book there is a chapter titled “there is a solution”. On the first page of that chapter there are a couple of paragraphs that outline the unity of our fellowship. It says that having shared a common peril is one element in the cement that binds us…. The tremendous fact for every one of us is that we have discovered a common solution.
Don’t let me or anyone else read your big book for you, please look for yourself. If you are thinking to yourself the big book is old and that’s not AA today, you could be right. However the big book still sells about 1 million copies annually and has sold over 30 million copies to date. The big book is and has always been the basic text that outlines AA’s program of action. To say otherwise would be very dishonest and misleading.
Please don’t take me too seriously; these are just my thoughts this morning. If my experience in AA has taught me anything, it’s that I probably will have a completely different view next year!
Gotta go, I get to pick up a sponsee for an early lunch before a noon meeting.
Blessings,
Corey
Fri, 2013-03-22 22:45
#27
Fellowship or fellowship
Are we losing sight of keep it simple ???????
It was suggested to me that when reading
the Big book or 12x12 that if I stuck
to the black bits I would not go to far
wrong.
Fri, 2013-03-08 13:08
#28
RE: Fellowship or fellowship?
Corey, Can you research and find out how many times
fellowship in the earlier editions of the Big Book has
been changed to Fellowship in the fourth edition? The
preamble still reads fellowship, but will soon be
Fellowship. I can hear the comments "for God's sake",
what difference could that possibly make? You are
a thinker. What do you think?. I think we ought to
remain a fellowship. I think the conditions for a
true fellowship are best written in the chapter
"A FRIEND LOOKS AT ALCOHOLICS ANONYMOUS" page 276
in Alcoholics Anonymous Comes of Age. Thanks for your
sincere devotion to our precious life-giving, life-
saving fellowship. ANONYMOUS
Fri, 2013-03-15 10:20
#29
Re: RE: Fellowship or fellowship?
Of course we must act on this danger to AA! People have died, wars have been lost because someone capitalized a word.
Next we can worry about how many times the word 'steps' is capitalized in AA literature and how many times it is written in lower case.
Wed, 2013-03-20 10:48
#30
ADO10416
Jim: Alcoholics are dying because our fellowship has
morphed into a Fellowship. In the past three decades we
have "evolved" from a fellowship of men and women to a
Twelve Step Program, only one of many such Programs.
As a fellowship our membership continuously grew
at the rate of doubling about every ten years. We have
fewer members in Alcoholics Anonymous today than we
had twenty years ago. We boast of TWO MILLION STRONG.
We ought to have eight million. We had almost two
and a half million two decades ago. Something has
gone horribly wrong. What happened? Dogma and Distortion
have all but destroyed A.A. Now I can add distraction. ANONYMOUS
Wed, 2013-03-27 17:17
#31
who are we?
Our traditions state that "Our leaders are but trusted servants" so we do indeed have "leaders". If that be the case it time for those folks to take a stand for our single purpose and do what the service manual says they are to do that being guard our steps and traditions. We seem to be trying to be all things to all people, allowing non-alcoholics to think we have a way out of any and all addictions. Not true! My sobriety is based upon my spiritual condition, if that is dogma so be it. We did not invent these steps they have been around for centuries, the fellowship that saved mine and millions of others evolved around the study and practice of this process we call the steps.
Open discussion meetings seem to be the most popular in my area, no one has ever explained to be the purpose of an open discussion meeting. My observations is that it allows non-alcoholics to participate and get the mis-guided impression that Alcoholics Anonymous can provide recovery no matter what the addiction. No Way! Please take a couragous stand for our SINGLE purpose. Ray
Tue, 2013-04-02 06:10
#32
RE: who are we?
Ray? What is an "open discussion" meeting? What started out as a meeting open to the public, where alcoholism is discussed, and
friends and families of alcoholics could attend, like so many things in A.A. this has been distorted. At this open meeting potential alcoholics could attend to "check us out"
wiithout admitting to be alcoholic. They may not even know
if they are alcoholic or not.
Today's open discussion resembles an A.A. meeting only
a little. It is just a group of people where anything
and everything is discussed and anyone can take part,
alcoholic or not; thus an open discussion meeting. ANONYMOUS
Mon, 2013-04-01 18:34
#33
RE: who are we?
Are we people who clap for others who survived getting out of a burning building they themselves burnt down ? - Are we people who praises sponsors? are we people who believes in God and can't rely on him so we call someone for relief instead - Who are WE surly has nothing to do with God wouldn't you say ?
Wed, 2013-04-03 11:24
#34
RE; RE: who are we?
Who do we think we are? We expect praise and applause for
doing what millions of people do as a matter of course. We
ought to walk humbly under the grace of God, for those of
us who believe in God, and share the umbrella, even if
our religious beliefs are not similar. I love that burning
building example that you have used before. God bless you and the rest of us. We certainly need it. ANONYMOUS
Sat, 2013-05-04 00:38
#35
WHO ARE WE
A RECOVERING ALCOHOLIC AS FOR MYSELF. LIVING FOR ALCOHOL WAS MY DEPENDENCE TO KEEP ME GOING, A DRUNK THAT NOW HAS A GREATER POWER FROM SHARING THAT DRINKING IS NORNAL FOR ME. NOT DRINKING IS A NEW EXPERINCE THAT WOULD ONLY BE WITH SUPPORT AND GIVING ME YOUR INABILITY TO STOP ON YOUR OWN. We was alcohol. now a relationship to other drinkers like myself means learning to stop judgement of my sick thinking that takes a lot of higher power to give me release from a life style of not wanting know one else to hate me. A.A. gives me hope seeing people like me not drinking. the freedom to grew close to a personal praying as his power does create my advancement from his already all knowledge of my experiencing the day from going through it, he always does all beyond my wildest dreams, I AM SUPPOSE TO BE DRINKING AND HATING MYSELF, SOME ONE REALLY LOVES ME!
Wed, 2013-03-20 16:23
#36
Upper Case or Lower Case
Alcoholics are dying, true but not because of some distinction between Fellowship and fellowship. It's because people are preaching that the Big Book doesn't have the answer, the answer is in the history books. It's because people are wasting so much time playing word games that the newcomers aren't hearing about recovery. It's because people are so busy coming up with what's wrong with AA that the newcomer doesn't get a chance to hear what's right with it.
Fri, 2013-03-29 18:56
#37
ADO10416
Alcoholics are dying while we stand by with a life saving
measure. Families and friends of the alcoholic are frustrated and suffering. Half measures avail us nothing. The
Alcoholics Anonymous fellowship, in its entirety, offers a solution.
The Big Book may contain the answer but it is not the
complete answer. Bill explained this by saying that more
would be revealed. The Big Book is a mighty beginning. The
12 & 12 further explains the steps and explains the Traditions. Bill wrote the BB at less than five years
sober. Some may believe that Bill's hand was guided
by God. Bill wrote from his own experience, not by some
divine intervention. Bill's spiritual experience was
God given. Bill describes that awakening. I find it
interesting that Bill "watered down" his miraculous
experience in the big book. He used great care not to scare any future prospect away. We push them away at their first
meeting telling them they have to Find God and Find Him
NOW. I ask you to read those other books. ANONYMOUS
Wed, 2013-03-13 15:59
#38
re fellowship
In comparing the number of Fellowship to fellowship between the 1st and fourth editions, I came up with the following numbers:
In the first edition the word fellowship capitalized or not is used 25 times. Of those 25 times it was changed from lower case to capital twice. I believe once on page 94 and again on page 96. I don’t know why.
The fellowship is used 32 times in the fourth edition. The 7 additional uses of fellowship are mostly in the preface, forwards to the second, third, fourth editions, and once in a note in the chapter to the wives.
My numbers may not be exact, so check for yourself. I used the web page 164 and more to search “Fellowship”.
I hope this helps?
Corey
Fri, 2013-02-08 12:26
#39
About Traditions
Traditions,laws,customs,religion-they all resemble each other because they seek to perpetuate the past.Sometimes that's a good thing,sometimes bad.Let's not fall in love with ourselves, thinking that the dead hand of tradition will never strangle us as it has so many groups before.The most important AA traditions are not written-down:Meetings to abolish loneliness.Sponsorship to supply good orderly direction.Chairpersons to keep us from throwing chairs....AA Tradition 4 used to be a good one,but after much struggle to get our "4th.Chapter:We Agnostics Group" listed,it turns out we are not a group unless we've been awarded a group number.In my experience it is a distinction without a difference,like the difference between an AA meeting and an NA meeting:once you get past the rigamarole, you can't tell the difference.
Fri, 2013-03-08 19:37
#40
"rigamarole"
P.T.Barnum is famous for saying "There is sucker born everyday" one of his lesser know quotes is, "You can't sell any peanuts till you get em the tent". The point is if you do not identify with alcoholics you probably will not stay past the "rigamarole"."Shoemaker stick to thy last" is what we better be doing or we will be of no help to anyone.
I could give flying burb less if you believe in anything let alone God, but don't screw up the fellowship and program that saved mine and million of others lives. Go start you own deal. Good Luck. M.
Fri, 2013-03-08 19:24
#41
"rigamarole"
P.T.Barnum is famous for saying "There is sucker born everyday" one of his lesser know quotes is, "You can't sell any peanuts till you get em the tent". The point is if you do not identify with alcoholics you probably will not stay past the "rigamarole"."Shoemaker stick to thy last" is what we better be doing or we will be of no help to anyone.
I could give flying burb less if you believe in anything let alone God, but don't screw up the fellowship and program that saved mine and million of others lives. Go start you own deal. Good Luck. M.
Thu, 2013-02-07 15:05
#42
All Before
Most comments I have been reading are copied and pasted here from a anti-AA site. Look for yourself, easy enough. It's unfortunate that this forum has been hijacked.
Mon, 2013-02-11 01:32
#43
Before your comment:
Well my friend, in my humble opinion, you have really gone off the tracks with your post; but do keep trying.
If anything it is comments like yours that appear to hijack this site. What anti- AA site are you talking about? What comments have been copied and pasted to this site? You seem to be one who is talking in generalities that lack any credible evidence to support your claims.
Most comments I have read here have been well thought out, logical and supported by the Traditions as described in the 12 and 12, Big book and other AA approved literature.
These posts talk mainly about how today’s issues either detract from or reinforce the unity of AA. They are about the Traditions and that is what this thread is about.
The posts here talk about AA members experience and concerns regarding our Traditions; about how the Traditions are ignored, misunderstood or just plain violated by the majority of AA members.
They are about the problems that reflect little if any concern for the common welfare of our fellowship. They are about issues that threaten AA’s unity, growth, survival and the dismal recovery rates of our members, especially newcomers. They are about the issues that, over the past 20+ years, have resulted in millions of alcoholics failing to receive AA’s real message of recovery.
I for one have never cut and pasted anything to this site that was not my own work and I doubt that the majority of others have either. They are referenced to AA literature that supports the writtings.
I am so grateful to those who take the time to share by writing. By reading them I learn I am not alone in my beliefs and my resolve is strengthened to try and fix the problems.
Thanks for the part you play in my sobriety.
Mike B.
Oliver, BC.
Sun, 2013-02-10 09:41
#44
re All before
I don't know what that means but that's OK.
A wonderful thing about anonymous postings on the internet is that the words have to stand on their own two feet. They gain no credibility from the lofty perch or personality that they came from. They could be from the Bible, Socrates, Charlie Manson's cell or the restroom wall. No one in their right mind would accept them as being factual without comparing them with their own knowledge or some verification.
I try to connect my posts to some well-established AA principal and spell out the connection to it. If someone doesn't like what I'm saying they don't have an argument with me (an anonymous internet poster). They have a beef with the principal. They certainly have a right to do that. Let he reader see both sides and decide for themselves.
Thu, 2013-02-28 15:16
#45
It would be lovely to get
It would be lovely to get some feedback about an idea I am working on. Soon there will be a conference.Part of which will be the question: Should we change the short form of the eleventh tradition? The thought is that no mention of the internet allows for potential breaks of anonimity since the internet is not specifically mentioned in the short form of the 11th tradition.Be that as it may,the 12x12 says on page 14,the introduction:The 2002 general service conference discussed this issue and it was unanimously recommended that:"The text in the book twelve steps and twelve traditions,written by Bill W.,remain as is,recognizing the Fellowships feelings,that Bills writings be retained as originally published." What do you all think should happen?
Sun, 2013-02-10 07:26
#46
RE; All Before
Bill W. wrote in the April 1963 edition of the AA
Grapevine, page 345 in The Language of the Heart, an
article: "Our Critics Can Be Our Benefactors".
If we are criticized by anti AA sites, we ought
to pay attention. If it is completely false we can
ignore it. But if there is any truth we need/ought/
must pay attention and make corrections.
Stop reading "How it Works" aloud at meetings. Remove the
24hr book from our rooms, Stop all forms of chanting,
stop sharing by "show of hands", delete today's form
of sponsor (if we do this, the real sponsor will
re-surface), stop the holding hands and praying.
These simple changes (reversals) will begin the restoration of the effectiveness of our fellowship
(not Fellowship) of Alcoholics Anonymous. ANONYMOUS
Tue, 2013-01-22 12:03
#47
Tradition 4
Last week it seemed that a GSR and a DCM couldn’t read Tradition 4 on the sign on the wall. “HIGHER UP’S are looking into the problem and are writing to New York.” Doesn’t look that tough to me but that’s how it came down. Our central office is only an hour’s drive and I’m retired so I went and picked up a handfull of pamphlets “The AA Group”. A few people looked at them. The problem went away. I imagine that a letter from GSO will arrive in a few months encouraging the would-be leaders to re-read the tradition and maybe the pamphlet “The AA Group”. The dog barks, the caravan passes
Tue, 2013-01-22 12:02
#48
Tradition 12
Last week a member shared an experience he had at another group in town. His second AA meting in his life. There, he shared among other things that he was going to counseling. For that he was interrupted by the meeting chair with something like “This is AA. We don’t want to hear about your council ling, or your lawn mower or any other stuff. You talk about your alcoholism here.” He’s never been back. He’s been a sober, contributing member of our group for about two years. Now it’s my turn to confront him. I think sharing a negative experience at another group, by name violates the tradition – “principals before personalities”. The principal is that there is another AA group in town. The personality is that there was a jerk chairing the meeting the day he was there. I try not to pass judgment based on that one experience. Contempt before investigation. If someone gets mad at us and is willing to give AA another chance before they give up completely, I want them to try that other group. Maybe the jerk over there got drunk, got better or maybe the two will connect like Bill and Doctor Bob. I’ll share this information with the guy, one on one, and he’ll likely leave out the name of the other group the next time he tells the story. We always open the meeting reading one tradition. I’ll toss in tradition 12 this week . A free bonus tradition today, no extra charge.
Sat, 2013-01-19 10:46
#49
Chanting, prayer, the whole enchalada
Yesteryear’s AA does not exist. I can’t get sober in it. I can’t stay sober in it. I can’t carry any message in it. It’s gone. My recollection of it is flawed anyway. I compare what’s good about what I want with what’s bad about what I don’t want. If my recollection was unflawed and unbiased it wouldn't matter. It’s still gone. Tradition two tells me that what we do in THIS MEETING, RIGHT HERE, RIGHT NOW is driven by the conscience of this GROUP. If what’s going on violates AA’s principals, its counseling not AA, is not the way we used to do it (or any of a hundred other ways to say “I DON’T LIKE IT”) then AA has a very simple grievance procedure. If my clear, well researched, presentation of my grievance doesn't enlighten those who error in their ways (don’t switch to MY WAY) I still have options. I can change my thinking. I can leave. I can demonstrate that what I do has such marvelous results that no one can keep themselves from following my example. I can sit around feeling sorry for myself because I can’t get people to DO WHAT I WANT THEM TOO. If I opt for the last option and am the good AA that I think I am then I’ll quickly repeat 6 and 7 and God will happy to remove that self pity before I get drunk over it. Is that a WIN, WIN, WIN, WIN, WIN situation or what?
I don’t believe a two thousand year old prayer, thought by many to be handed down personally by the son of God, needs to be improved. If it did, would the world’s self-proclaimed all time losers be the best group to do it? I share this bit of genius once in a while in meetings. I stop at amen myself. I don’t use The Lord’s Prayer if I chair a meeting. It’s unique to only one religion, excluding all others, so I don’t think it belongs In AA. Most think differently. I don’t argue. Their thinking is as good as mine.
I didn't like holding hands with other men when I started either. I got over it. Didn't hurt me a bit. Found out where the discomfort was coming from. Got over that too. A new freedom delivered as promised.