Steps
Tue, 2012-04-10 20:50
#301
so many meetings.
I love all this AA banter. What I would like to add is that we have so many AA meetings in my area that I have not even been able to go to all of them in over 16 years. AA is alive in well in NORCAL. peace Lisa
Thu, 2012-04-12 08:55
#302
Alive and Well
Most of today's A.A. members believe that Alcoholics
Anonymous is "alive and well". From the inside, it appears
to be. But stand back and take a good look. We had almost
two and a half million members in 1992, after growing
continuously for 57 years. We should have continued
growing. The supply of alcoholics is certainly abundant.
This is twenty years later and today we boast of having
TWO MILLION STRONG. Something is horribly wrong. I
could accept five or six million members, but we have
failed to grow for too many years. The true nature of
Alcoholics Anonymous has been changed at the level
of the A.A. GROUP. We have lost almost all effectiveness
in helping suffering alcoholics. Our mistakes have been
listed over and over on I-SAY.
Our membership numbers are an important indicator of
our overall success. They tell me that our success today
is dismal. I only ask you to consider, and investigate.
Alcoholics are suffering and dying while we delay. We
were given the method (technique) to help them. We
are not following the "few simple rules" mentioned by
Dr. Silkworth in The Doctors Opinion. Those "rules" are
not the twelve steps. ANONYMOUS
Wed, 2012-04-18 15:54
#303
One Alcoholic
If AA helps one alcoholic to stay sober,then it has done it's job, and has proven itself effective. It's not the number of people helped,but the quality.
Mon, 2012-04-23 11:15
#304
RE; One Alcoholic
If each member of Alcoholics Anonymous helps one alcoholic to stay sober in one year, then A.A. has
done its job. Do you really consider our fellowship
to be successful if we are not growing. The theme ought
to be "each one reach one". Today it seems to be "I've
got mine. Who cares whether A.A. grows? ANONYMOUS
Fri, 2012-04-13 13:58
#305
RE Alive an Well
Please share your opinion of what those "rules" are.
Sun, 2012-04-15 09:41
#306
opinion of rules
My opinion is that most A.A. members mistakenly think
that the "few simple rules" are the twelve steps. These
are the same members who distorted Dr. Bob's Let's keep
it simple advice. ANONYMOUS
Mon, 2012-04-16 15:38
#307
RE opinion of rules
Again, Please state you opinion of what thes "rules" are. And please be as specific as possible. I am a little slow due to alcoholism ;)
Thu, 2012-04-19 11:30
#308
"My opinion"
You ask again, so Here Goes! Don't ask me to back any
of this up. It is the way I understand the true A.A. method
of helping suffering alcoholics. First we do not tell
any alcoholic what to do, not even as a suggestion. Let
the Big Book offer the suggestions. Offer the book to
those approaching us for help. Don't even "suggest" that
they read it. It is ok to tell them that I read it. If
they want what I got from it, maybe they will read it.
I think Dr. Silkworth's advice is to "Go Easy on the
God Stuff." I believe one of his rules would be to
never open an A.A. meeting with material such as "How
it Works", or the 24 hour book. These make our fellowship
appear to be a religion. Most alcoholics just do not
respond well to the religious approach. So why turn them
away by telling them "That One is God, may you find Him
now!? Explain the allergy plus obsession theory. The
obsession of the mind which compels the alcoholic to drink,
and the allergy of the body, which will eventually kill him. Let Her/Him decide what they want to do about it. Just tell them what we did and what happened to us.
Dr Silkworth worked with alcoholics, some sources say
forty years and found this "Easy Does It" approach through
working with Bill W. This approach worked well for over
fifty years. We have distorted it, ignored it and do the
contempt prior to investigation. Dogma and distortion due
to foolish pride and the alcoholic EGO. I will read and
consider your opinion. This is mine. ANONYMOUS
Thu, 2012-04-19 22:10
#309
Re my opinion
I won't ask you to back it up. In my opinion, I think each individuals opinion or at least the tolerance of each others opinions is one of AAs greatest assets.
If we all always had the same opinions, none of us would question our own beliefs. I find when I consider others conceptions and compare them to my own, I often change mine for the better.
Thanks for reading.
Fri, 2012-04-13 18:22
#310
"rules"
This would indeed have to be an opinion. I do not
think a "list" was ever prepared. The best answer I
can offer is to come to an understanding of Dr. Silkworth's
"cart before the horse" idea. That old horse and buggy stuff
is How It Works. That is my opinion. ANONYMOUS.
Tue, 2012-03-20 22:18
#311
Growth of AA
I have read in this forum about how thw effectiveness of AA is on the decline. I am a newcomer to AA but have been to several meetings in the last few years at many different places. Unfortunately i am often ignored. I may get an occasional "Hello" now and then but for the most part I am never approached. I did reach out and ask for help but I am sure there are many who end up not coming back because of this. What ever happend to carrying the message? Maybe if old timers see a new face they can approach the new comer after the meeting and make them feel welcomed. We all remember how terrifying our first meeting was.
Thu, 2012-04-12 10:50
#312
RE: Growth of AA
I think most of us forget how terrifying the first meeting can be, and how very difficult it is to just come
in the door. I was moderately drunk at my first meeting, and was with a friend who had been there before. So it
was fairly easy for me. Sitting there, I knew there was
something of great value in the room that night. I could
feel the concern that the members had for me and for each
other. It was something I had searched for, but had little
hope that I would ever find. I still remember the
freedom I felt. No one was there to boss me around. No
one ordered me to do anything, not even to "keep coming
back". Even the leader and speaker did not appear to
be "in charge". This is a delicate time and an alcoholics
life may be on the line. What is the best method of
approaching the newcomer, so we welcome her/him without
pushing them back out into the darkness. Do we smother
him/her or give them no attention at all. The answer
has to be somewhere in the balance. I believe Easy does
It is the best approach. The state meeting schedule
was vital to my entry into A.A., a year and a half
after my first introduction to A.A. by my friend. But
if my first meeting had been preachy, I doubt that I
would have ever returned. I believe I would have died
before I became that desperate. I had tried religion and
the churches several times before. They just did not work for me for very long. I needed the fellowship of women
and men I found here in Alcoholics Anonymous. ANONYMOUS
Fri, 2012-04-13 14:06
#313
RE Growth ot AA
I have read several posts stating I would have this or I would have that when I first came to AA.
I can state that I did not know the difference in any meeting or format when I first came to aa. I didn't know traditions or steps. All I knew was the people in the meeting were attractive to me. I thought I was going to die and was at my bottom and willing to do whatever it took to not drink.
In my experience, If the group or meeting is not attractive to newcomers, the meeting or group will eventually die.
After being taught the 12 steps out of the big book, I learned why the meeting I attended was so attractive. as a result of the steps, most aa's at that meeting had a spiritual experience. I could see they were happy, joyous, and free instead of restless, irritable, and discontent like the aa's with untreated alcoholism.
Wed, 2012-03-21 13:35
#314
Hand Shake
I wish you could attend my home group. If you walked in the door and I have not met you before, I would knock over 2-4 people to shake your hand and make sure we had a short discussion pertaining to thinking about drinking till you drink and then not being able to stop once you start. Then I would give you the book Alcoholics Anonymous to read to see if you are interested in our program of action. If you were interested you could then call the number I gave you and we could then work the steps together.
If none of the groups in your area work this way, I would suggest you aquire the book Alcoholis Anonymous, follow the simple directions, then start you own group employing the program of action. Many people are book converts, that is the purpose of that book, so you can get sober regardless of anyone!
Thanks for your sharing, it's just what I needed to hear!
CU
Tue, 2012-03-27 10:27
#315
RE; Hand Shake
Most members today work this way. That is one reason why oureffectiveness has diminished. I am ever so grateful that
you were not at my first meeting. I doubt that I would
have come to a second. Welcome the newcomer. Show him
the way to the coffee pot and where the rest rooms are.
Introduce yourself by first name only. This way the
newcomer understands our anonymous nature. I believe more
alcoholics get sober by reading the Big Book, than by
the agressive approach you described. Ask the new member
to have a seat and listen. Let her/him decide all by themselves if they want what we have. If they decide as
time passes they want to "work" the steps, be available
to guide them to a step meeting and the 12+12. They do
not need you to take the steps. If you have worked all the steps, it is OK to tell the new member that you have done
so. But it is harmful to that member and to AA as a whole
to even suggest that he/she has to do the same. You may
not understand all this. Many AA members may consider this
as just nonsense. But I believe it is the truth. ANONYMOUS
Tue, 2012-04-03 11:21
#316
RE: RE; Hand Shake--Anonymous
I absolutely don't understand where your ideas are coming from! This is not a personal attack it is a legimate statement. This is AA. The program of AA is the 12 steps. To suggest or even think that telling a newomer to work the steps is harmful is against everything in the program. You are absolutely entitled to your opinion but I hope to God you are not going to meetings and telling newcomers or anyone else that they don't have to work the steps! Are you sober and are you an AA member or are you someone just stiring up some trouble? This is AA. In AA we work the steps. This is the road to recovery. If you or anyone else want to come to meetings, (as long as they have a desire to stop drinking), welcome. But please keep your mouth shut if you are contrary to the program or don't believe in the program! Please! You may be killing people!
Ray C.
Thu, 2012-04-05 10:50
#317
Personal Attack
My ideas are coming from four decades of living the
A.A. way of life. I only regret that I have waited so long
to point out our mistakes. Bill W wrote about all this
stuff when he was developing Alcoholics Anonymous. Bill
was constantly writing about the blunders our fellowship
could make. In my opinion, we have made practically all
of them. Today we still have hundreds of thousands of
suffering alcoholics and their families approaching A.A. every year.
Almost everyone knows that our success is less than zero.
Eventually they will just give up on us. Let's
turn this ship around while there is still time. Stop
reading How It Works" at meetings. Remove the 24 hr book from A.A. meetings. Stop all forms of chanting. Stop making a spectacle of the newcomer. Stop allowing newcomers to
make spectacles of themselves. Delete the title of
sponsor from A.A. The origional concept of the sponsor has
been lost. Better to just drop it than to try to
reverse it. Begin now to separate addict's meetings
from alcoholics meetings. Stop the sharing by "show of
hands". This customs creates numerous EGO problems.
Stop the "moment of silence", praying for all and
sundry, while holding hands in our ring around the rosy
circle. A.A meetings are not the place to pray. We are not a prayer group. Pray on your own time, as I do often. All these blunders have been written about
numerous times on I-SAY. These may not be all the
mistakes we have made, but it is enough to reduce our
growth from doubling about every ten years to today's
stagnation, over a thirty year period. ANONYMOUS
Mon, 2012-04-09 12:16
#318
Re: Personal Attack
You forgot to say don't read the BB and don't work the steps like you have said before in the posts here.
There are 16 prayers that I know of in the BB.
Praying is bad I guess. Bill W and the original 100 sure blew it when they wrote that book didn't they. I wish you were around then to straighten them out!!
Maybe then AA would have a billion members today and we would have solved all the worlds problems!!
Ray C.
Thu, 2012-04-12 09:13
#319
Reading and Praying
I don't remember saying "don't read the BB". Maybe I am
growing senile, etc. I don't remember telling anyone "don't
work the steps". Could you point out where I wrote these
things? I read these messages over and over. And I repeat
the same concerns: Reading How It Works aloud at the
beginning of A.A. meetings is the most tragic blunder we
have made in the past three decades. This is followed
closely by the incessant chanting, which is something
many of us agree on.
A.A. meetings are not the place to pray. We are not
a prayer group. Pray on your own time. That is what I
do often.
Maybe in a thousand years we will have a billion A.A.
members. Today I would be satisfied with five or six
million; happy with eight million. ANONYMOUS
Tue, 2012-04-10 10:54
#320
Re; Re: Personal Attack
Thanks for not walking away. At least we can agree to
disagree. I personally would not change anything in the
third edition of the Big Book. I would not have approved
the fourth edition if I had been there. I don't agree with
the "hold hands and pray" story. There were changes in the
writing on the dust cover which were altered. That is being
considered in the Conference next week. I hope the wording
is returned to the previous one as it appeared in the
third edition.
Prayer is a wonderful thing. I pray every day, sometimes several times a day. I would no more do without
it than I would refuse sunshine or food. But I don't
impose that belief on anyone else.
I have yet to find any fault with the first part of
the Big Book, the 164 pages and Dr Silkworth's opinion.
I have read parts of the book being criticized by A.A.
bashers, but in my opinion they just write their own
understanding between the lines. And I do believe there
are sometimes messages written there. I think the first
hundred members wrote the greatest story ever told. I
know it saved my life and my brothers life decades ago.
As I wrote before, our fellowship is worth more than
the world's gold. And from your obvious passion that is
something we really agree on. ANONYMOUS
I know, you did not say you were walking away from
I-SAY. Only from Manny, Rose and me.
Fri, 2012-04-06 22:29
#321
re: personal attack
The way this works as I understand the traditions and the structure of AA is that if you believe a meeting should be run differently, you should get involved with that group's service committee, or call a group conscience, to discuss all the things you think are wrong. If others share your concerns, maybe the changes you seek will be implemented. If they are successful in attracting more people to your group, that growth may have an impact on neighboring groups. If they are not, your group will fizzle out. But to suggest that you have insight into what ails all of AA, and that all groups need to follow your lead, sound a bit like the bleeding deacon Bill writes about in the 12 & 12.
Sat, 2012-04-14 18:16
#322
criticism
You seem to suggest that I start "my" own meeting and
then critize me for doing so. ANONYMOUS
Tue, 2012-04-10 04:36
#323
re; re: personal attack
The meeting I started will celeberate its sixth
anniversary in May. We have a daily dozen and have grown
slowly. We do no chanting, and do not read HIW at the
meeting. We do not assign sponsors, nor do we hold hands
and pray. I have called group conscience meetings at
two other meetings and we have eliminated all readings
except the preamble. We are there to share, not to read to each other.
These changes (reversals) must be made or A.A. will
eventually fizzle out. But I am only one person and
have limits. Those who understand what I am talking
about have to stand up and speak out. The sad part is
that most of those who have been affected have just
walked away. Most will never be reached.
I may not have all the answers, but I have a lot
of them. I have learned a lot from the messages
posted here. I previously had not understood why today's
concept of sponsor is so harmful. It took a traditions
workshop and messages on I-SAY for me to understand that.
Today I believe we need to eliminate the lable "sponsor"
from our A.A. vocabulary. Today's concept makes A.A.
a cult or sect. ANONYMOUS
Tue, 2012-04-10 13:32
#324
Re: re; re: personal attack
Anonymous writes, "We do no chanting, and do not read HIW at the meeting. We do not assign sponsors, nor do we hold hands
and pray." etc. etc.
Just a wild guess, but I'd say you've made a lot of rules for "your" group.
Don't you find it strange that meetings which read, chant, hold hands, pray, etc. are still going on?
In the early 1970s I attended meetings in five different states and three foreign countries. The only custom I've seen added since then has been the "Keep coming back" addition to the Lord's Prayer and the hugging.
Wed, 2012-04-11 06:43
#325
lot of rules?
Our group follows guidelines. We conduct the meeting in
the manner in which all A.A. meetings were conducted in the
1970s. At least that is the way of the meetings I attended.
And I attended meetings almost daily.
If we had kept meetings the way they were, they would
still be growing as they did. But we allowed personalities
to overcome principles and the meetings morphed into other
customs and rituals.
No, I don't think it is strange that read,read,read,
hold hands and pray and chant, shout hoot and holler,
meetings continue. Today's members seem to enjoy these
rituals and customs.
These meetings continue, but are they growing? They
can continue for several more decades and pick up enough
members to replace those who die or drop out. But I
believe we either grow or go, the same as individual A.A.
members.
Have you given any thought to the membership numbers
developed by the General Service Office for the year 2010?
Only ONE group out of FOUR could claim ONE new member for
the whole year! (US and Canada). I believe alcoholics are
still approaching A.A. by the hundreds of thousands every
year. We are failing them. Their families and friends are
suffering. We have a method to help them, but we are not
using it. The method has been so distorted that most A.A.
members don't even know what that technique is. It can
be found in Dr. Silkworth's IDEA. And there I go again.
And the answers can be found on I-SAY! No EGO problem here! ANONYMOUS
Thu, 2012-04-12 08:15
#326
Lot Of Rules
"Our group follows guidelines."
And what do you do if someone doesn't follow your 'guidelines'?
Fri, 2012-04-13 18:46
#327
R E: Lot of Rules
If a member of "my" group doesn't "toe the line" I call
the A.A. POOlice. They do it my way, or they are out the door. Actually the group does nothing and says nothing when someone doesn't follow our guidelines. The new member
soon realizes how ridiculous chanting sounds when they are
the only one who is chanting. Atheists and agnostics are
relieved that they do not have to hold hands and pray
with us. And newcomers are relieved when they understand
that we will not make a spectacle of them. We discourage
them from making a spectacle of themselves, by simply
going around the room. No sharing by "show of hands".
Everyone is treated as an equal. I hope this answers
your question. ANONYMOUS
Wed, 2012-04-11 14:22
#328
Re: Lot of rules?
You make the statement:
"We conduct the meeting in the manner in which all A.A. meetings were conducted in the 1970s. At least that is the way of the meetings I attended. And I attended meetings almost daily."
You make the common mistake of judging the entire world on what you see in your immediate vicinity. I have no reason to believe that meetings you attended in the seventies were conducted the way you say. But that is not proof that meetings throughout the world were conducted that way. As I've stated in other posts, between mid 1971 and mid 1973 I attended meeting in five states and three foreign countries. The only things I've seen added since those days are the hugging and the "Keep coming back it works of you work it!" chant.
Going by your logic, we should go back to the way meetings were conducted in, for example, 1936. We'd hold Oxford Group meetings, rather than AA meetings. Or we could do it like they did in Richmond in the early forties, and drink beer between meetings.
Fri, 2012-04-13 13:25
#329
Return to 1936?
Why would my logic indicate that we ought to go back
to the OG method? That technique was highly unsuccessful
for alcoholics. Bill found that alcoholics just did not
respond well to that approach. Not one sobered up. Bill
finally changed that approach, obeying advice from Dr.
Silkworth. I have written many times explaining where
to find that advice. Page 70 in AACA is just one location this IDEA can be found.
Bill separated what was to become A.A. from OG around
1937. This was a vital decision. Dr. Bob remained with
OG until 1940 (in Akron), and he left the Oxford Groups.
His friend Henrietta was angry with Dr. Bob for following
Bill and leaving OG.
I believe that Alcoholics Anonymous was at its most
effective in the 1960s, 1970s and 1980s. We were doubling
in membership about every ten years. DO YOU UNDERSTAND WHAT
THAT MEANS?? Suffering alcoholics by the hundreds of
thousands were recovering every year. Their families and
friends were relieved. The reputation of A.A. was better
than our actual character. We had no enemies, except maybe
the liquor industry, and the for-profit rehabs.
We slowly have returned to the OG method. This started
with the reading of "How It Works" being read at the
beginning of A.A. meetings. (1980 in the east). The
acceptance of the 24hr book into AA tradition further
moved us to a christian religion. The ritual of chanting
started (again around 1980 in the east). This makes us look foolish in the eyes of the public.
No, I do not want to return to the A.A. of 1036.
I think that is what "Back to Basics" members were trying
to do. I obviously do not like the strange religious cult
A.A. of today. We have changed from a fellowship of men and
women to a Twelve Step Program Fellowship.
We can continue to spin our wheels, helping a few, or
we can return to the proven method which worked for
wholesale recovery for alcoholics. It is really up to us.
In Richmond, Va. Members drank beer AT the A.A.
meetings. I read this in AACA. I don't know how long they
drank beer at their meetings. I suspect it lasted until
the wives found out.
I hate to be critical but I do have following your
"logic". I think you meant to say disbelieve, but I make
mistakes often. I have heard that the best way of avoiding
mistakes is to do nothing. Obviously a few of us are not
remaining silent. I remained silent for too many decades
watching the fellowship which saved my life and my
brother's life almost destroy itself from within. ANONYMOUS
Thu, 2012-04-19 11:50
#330
1936 NOT 1036
Dr. Bob was a member of the Oxford Groups for two
years before he met Bill W. The Doctor wrote that he got
tight every night. How effective was that movement in
helping alcoholics? Rowland and Ebby found sobriety
there. I think Roland held on to his sobriety. Ebby did
have periods of sobriety, between relapses.
Do you know why Bill placed "How it Works" in chapter
five? Bringing this reading to the podium was one of our
worst blunders of the past three decades, followed closely
by the chanting and the introduction of the 24 hour book
at meetings. Alcoholics are experts at rationalizing and
justifying: The Richmond A.A. members said that beer
was OK since it was fermented and not distilled. Please
don't ask where I read that. Manny Quinn
Mon, 2012-04-09 12:19
#331
Bleeding Deacon Woes
You said it!!!
I feel if I work on myself and be a good AA and do my part things will improve if they need to and if it is God's will!
It's funny but in Bill's last message he didn't say Dr. Silkworth's IDEA was the key to AA growth, he said anonymity was!!
Ray C.
Thu, 2012-04-12 11:32
#332
Bill W's Last Message.
You may have a recording of Bill W's last message. I
don't have a copy yet. Bill did write in the 12 & 12 p.187 that:
"We are sure that humility, expressed by anonymity, is the
greatest safeguard that Alcoholics Anonymous can ever have.
Bill wrote that sentence before 1953. But was that his last
message to us?
Anonymity may be the key to the growth of A.A. but Bill
wrote many times that without Dr. Silkworth's "IDEA", Alcoholics Anonymous could never have been BORN in the
first place. I again ask you to investigate this "IDEA".
ANONYMOUS
Tue, 2012-04-10 23:39
#333
Bill's last message...
... bears reading daily, as does Dr. Bob's, adding "restraint of keyboard" to the list of things I need to remind myself of daily. Bill's last message to me reflects the same powerful message he set out in the 12 tradition (long form) and his discussion of that tradition, that anonymity as synonymous with humility is vital to the individual as well as the group. As I celebrate another sobriety birthday, I can only marvel at how little I did to get here, but also how important each individual is as a part of the whole.
Thu, 2012-04-05 06:04
#334
Ray C.
Telling a newcomer to work the steps is harmful because it
goes against the "IDEA" offered to Bill W. by
Dr. Silkworth in the spring of 1935. Bill writes many times
that without this idea AA could never been born. ANONYMOUS
Thu, 2012-04-05 11:21
#335
Re: Ray C.
Submitted by Anonymous on Thu, 2012-04-05 06:04.
"Telling a newcomer to work the steps is harmful because it
goes against the "IDEA" offered to Bill W. by
Dr. Silkworth in the spring of 1935. Bill writes many times
that without this idea AA could never been born." ANONYMOUS
The "idea" Dr Silk worth gave Bill was to quit preaching that they must have a religious experience like he had. Reading AA literature rather than listening to misinformation will show that from the very beginning Bill and Dr. Bob recommended a program of (then) six steps. See page 263 in the Big Book.
In Chapter 7, "Working With Others," we are told,
"Tell him exactly what happened to you. Stress the spiritual feature freely."
"Outline the program of action, explaining how you made a self-appraisal, how you straightened out your past and why you are now endeavoring to be helpful to him."
"Suppose now you are making your second visit to a man. He has read this volume and says he is prepared to go through with the Twelve Steps of the program of recovery."
Egads and gadzooks!! On the second visit? Won't that scare the newcomer away??
Mon, 2012-04-09 12:12
#336
Re: Re: Ray C.--Scaring the newcomer away
No--It won't scare the newcomer away because as you just wrote from the book he will have read this volume by then---If he/she has read the book he will know what he/she is in for and hopefully has made a decision he/she wants to be sober and is willing to do anything to get sober!!
Ray C.
Tue, 2012-04-10 16:41
#337
Scaring newcomers
The way A.A. works is attraction not promotion. We really
don't want the newcomer to know what she/he is "in for"
until the addiction to our fellowship has a firm grip on
them. This is one of the messages written in the 12&12 on page 25. "Look what you people have done to us!" We want
to have them over a barrel before we let on what they are "in for". You may have to "read between the lines".
We push alcoholics away (both young and old), by
cramming the steps down their throats before they have
become ready. We must let them become ready on their
own without any pushing or prodding from me or anyone
else. How much more simple can I explain this method?
Give the newcomer time to become addicted to our
fellowship and friendship first. Have a cup of coffee
(I still find A.A. coffee the best in the world), a quality never before tasted. Have a seat and listen. We will
protect your identity. We thank you for coming and listening
to us. That is how WE stay sober. Thanks for your time.
you can join us any time you wish. No cover charge.
This is that the technique(call it a trick if you wish)
that attracts the suffering alcoholic soul. Not: That One
is God! May you find Him now! ANONYMOUS
Wed, 2012-04-11 15:59
#338
re attraction not promotion
I think it's attraction not promotion at the public level. However I have read that we share our exerience,strength, and hope, then ask the newcomer if he is willing to go to any length to have what we have. Obviously if what I have is not attractive, no one is gonna go to any lenghts for it (work the 12 steps).
Fri, 2012-04-13 18:11
#339
RE; re attraction not promotion.
How about if we just share our experience, strength, and
hope and then ask the newcomer NOTHING? I believe that is
the true A.A. method. Let the newcomers decide all
by themselves without any pushing or prodding from anyone.
Does this sound ridiculous? ANONYMOUS
Mon, 2012-04-09 06:14
#340
The IDEA
Dr Silkworth advised Bill to stop preaching, PERIOD. The little doctor had treated drunks for forty years, and knew
that alcoholics don't respond well to the "That One is God, may you find Him now! approach. Rose
Sat, 2012-04-07 14:43
#341
re re ray c
The vital advice Dr. Silkworth gave Bill W. was to
stop preaching, period! Reading "How It Works" and the
24 hour book to newcomers is about as close to a sermon
as any I have ever heard. ANONYMOUS
Thu, 2012-04-05 18:37
#342
re re ray c
We are reading from chapter seven. Allow me to make some
slight adjustments. "Tell him/her exactly what happened to
YOU. Stress the spiritual feature freely." "Outline the program of action, explaining how YOU made a self appraisal,
how YOU straightened out YOUR past and why you are now
endeavoring to be helpful to her/him. Why are you trying to
be helpful to the new member? So you can have another notch
on your AA belt? Or are you doing it to save your own life?
Let me ask you this: when was the last time you made a
twelvth step call as described here? Ever? How many
potential members read the Big Book by the second visit.
Are you going to order this new member to get down on his
knees beside you and turn her/his life over to God? Is this
the way Ebby presented the solution to Bill W. I don't think
so. There is a special technique which best reaches the
soul of the suffering alcoholic. We tell him/her what we were like,what happened, and what we are like now. We do not tell any alcoholic, new or old, what to do. We make
NO DEMANDS,not even disguised as "suggestions". What
worked for you, worked for you. What worked for me worked
for me. But when A.A. was working for me in the 1970's,
thousands were recovering every year. We increased from
about 300,000 to about 900,000 in that decade. I believe
what worked for you worked for you, but what about all
the other suffering alcoholics who are not being helped
by 1990's A.A. I believe that you could have gotten
sober in the fellowship of the 1970's. I am equally
convinced that today's A.A. would have failed me. I
hope some of this makes sense. I am still trying to
figure it out. ANONYMOUS
Tue, 2012-04-03 16:41
#343
Ray C.
Don't worry! In no way would I tell anyone in A.A. or
any other program that they don't have to do the steps. I
still believe Alcoholics Anonymous is God's greatest gift
to the alcoholic and the alcoholic's family and friends.
I just don't tell anyone in the fellowship that they
have to work the steps. At least I don't any more. I was a
twelve step pusher and Big Book thumper more years than I
care to remember. That was before I realized that AA had
lost half a million members in the 1990's, and remains
virtually stagnant today. I did not know that this was
the method used by Bill W. in his first six months of
what he called "violent exertion". Bill describes this
method as spectacularly unsuccessful. This is the same method
used by most AA members today.
I had never read what Bill W. wrote on page 8 in Language of the Heart. I just did not know about the
advice Dr. Silkworth gave to Bill just prior to Bill's
venture to Akron in the spring of 1935. Bill W. gave
up his role as preacher, teacher or adviser. Bill W.
was just a desperate alcoholic trying to save himself.
Dr. Bob responded to that approach with a story of
his own.
Today I share my own story of my experience, strength
and hope and STOP. I don't make any demands disguised as
suggestions. I don't have the power to make anyone do
anything. Today I obey the attraction NOT promotion theory
For example, I share how the steps have helped me to stay
sober. But I do not ask "when are you going to do the same?
I still do the 90 in 90 and have been doing so for the
past dozen years. But I do not tell anyone that they have
to do 90 in 90 in order to get sober, or stay sober. That is just not true. I don't tell anyone that they have to do the steps.
The steps are suggestions. The A.A. member, new or old
can use them or not. I let them make that decision themselves. Bill used the words "the power of his full
consent, willfully given". See Lang. Page 8.
I truly appreciate and understand your concern. A.A.
is my life-line. We have something worth more than the
world's gold. A solution to alcoholism which almost
always works. (when we follow the path).
Wed, 2012-04-04 10:42
#345
Re: Ray C
Contradictions,contradictions!!
Look, I love AA history. It is interesting and important.
But Bill, (with input from the group), wrote the BB first.
Then, if I am not mistaken, wrote the 12/12. After that came the other books you keep mentioning. AACA, Dr. Bob and The Good Old Timers and so forth.
Bill owned most of the rights to the BB and could have amended it, changed it or even rewritten it if he wanted to at any point! If he thought these IDEAS and other solutions were better for AA and the still suffering alcoholic, WHY WOULDN'T HE MAKE THE CHANGES! Most of your arguments make no sense if you think of it in this way! The BB is our road map, our basic text, our program to recovery!
Ray C.
Sat, 2012-04-07 15:22
#346
AA History
For someone who loves AA history, you seem to know very
little about it. Of course Bill W wrote the 12&12 using his own experiences and the accumulated experience of other AA
members and non AA friends.
The ownership of the first edition of our Big Book was
turned over to the alcoholic foundation in 1940. The debts
of the Big Book were paid off, and around 1942, the Foundation became the sole owner of the AA book and put it
in trust for our society for all time. This
information can be found on page 15 of AACA. I would
strongly suggest that you buy this book, along with the
others, especially LANGUAGE. If you have them please
read them, (study them).
Most A.A. members know that we eventually lost the
copyright for the big book. Don't ask me to explain that
blunder. We simply dropped the ball. I guess this could
be considered a personal attack. Slow down and research
this information before you post it. Mistaken information
can be harmful. How are you succeeding with cutting down
on the chanting at your groups? ANONYMOUS
Mon, 2012-04-09 14:20
#347
RE: AA History Anonymous, Rose and Manny
I'm finished. It started out with a few ideas on how AA might improve itself and it has gone to who knows more about AA history. I have already agreed on some topics but now you are brow beating. For 75+ years the program has basically, (not saying for eveyone but most), been read the big book, get a higher power and work the steps. Now it has to be leave the newcomer alone but have them read every book approved by AA so they can make a decision if they want to get sober but not work the steps or heaven forbid having a higher power.
No more from me on your subjects, go ahead and carry the banner. I don't think arguing on this web site for all the world to see is the best thing for AA. I am taking the high road and responding positively to the folks who want to get sober or have questions about the program as outlined in the BB. Adios.
Ray C.
Tue, 2012-04-10 05:30
#348
RE; High Road
Before I apologize, and I am sincerely sorry that I
have hurt your feelings, let me make one last correction.
The shares of the Big Book were turned over to the Foundation, later re-named The General Service Board of
Alcoholics Anonymous. This ownership change took place in 1942. The
board of trustees could change the wording in the BB
if they decided to. Bill relinguished his shares to
the Trustees, to the fellowship.
The shares mentioned in Bill W.'s will were shares
of the royalties Bill received from his work. If I
found this information, anyone here could find it. But
I hope that the Big Book is never re-written, although
there were some changes in the wording on the dust
cover which was changed, and is now being challenged
at this years's General Service Conference.
Again, Ray C. I am sorry I hurt your feelings. I
am saddened that I have lost another friend. I had hoped
that we would someday be on the same page. I feel we are still in the same book and maybe in the same chapter.
I look forward to reading your messages, although they
may not be written to me.
And I am almost done. I have written my concerns over
and over. I am elderly and have a lot of "loose ends"
to clear up. I may see very little reversal of the
blunders we have made. And these corrections may never
be made. The A.A. Fellowship of today could continue for
several more decades, stumbling along, spinning our
wheels, churning. Pride and the alcoholic EGO are
indeed powerful. But someday I hope to go to an A.A.
meeting and hear the chairperson say: We no longer read
"How it Works" here at the meeting; we have discovered
that it can be harmful to newcomers and other members.
And it goes against the advice given to Bill W. in the
spring of 1935. Bill writes many times that without
this advice A.A. could never have succeeded. And I fear
that if we continue to ignore that advice, Alcoholics
Anonymous will eventually vanish completely. Even
worse, we could continue churning, gaining enough members
to replace those who die or drop out. We push away most of
those approaching us by the way our meetings are conducted.
Those who are already here and those few who stay make
it appear that Alcoholics Anonymous is "alive and well".
Our membership numbers indicate that is simply not true.
ANONYMOUS
Wed, 2012-03-28 15:47
#350
Please read chapter 7
Please read chapter seven in the book Alcoholics Anonymous, especially pgs 94 and 95. The whole chapter outlines the best practices for 12 step work.
Chapter 7 is entirely devoted to step 12. If I am practicing something different, as I have done in the past, I am only fooling myself that what I am doing is 12 step work.
Thanks for posting so we can have these important discussions!